*skin crawling and feeling nauseous*

*not_secure_link*icanw.org/history

*not_secure_link*www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/Nuclearweaponswhohaswhat

​

 

An all out nuclear war at the peak of the cold war would not end all human life on earth, and it definitely would not now. It WOULD be the WORST global event in the history of mankind, and populations decimated. The world would be a different and bleak place afterwards But it is nothing but a myth that all life would be destroyed. This has been shown in science journals. Governments know this, and continue the charade.

 

What do these pastes have to do with anything?

As usual, you are completely missing the point.

 

Show me those science journals then would you? I'd be very interested in seeing them.

 

There is nothing wrong with this strategy, the UK constitution also allows for early elections. If your president gets a vote of no confidence, he still continues in office, over here that is a call for an early election, and a three month campaign is much better for the public than a long drawn out one that seems to last two years over there, half the time your president is trying to please the public and the houses to back his campaign, not such a good way to run things. A snap election is great and gives the politicians a short time to persuade who we vote for.

MAD worked for all those years because both sides knew the other would lob nuclear missiles back, it will not work in the mid east because they don't fucking care, all we can do is not get drawn into this crap and hope that oil that glows in the dark is still usable.

On a side note tactical nukes are useless, by the time the commanders have been given the the okay to fire the tactical situation will have changed. That worked in Europe but again the Arabs and Jews will fire without care, but their bombs will be measured in kilo-tons and not mega-tons. Again all we need to do is keep out of it, let them nuke each other.

Another side note.

Though not a nuclear war the amount of testing carried out across the world looks like one. I posted this in a thread but it is always worth a look when discussing nuclear war.

[YOUTUBE]I9lquok4Pdk[/YOUTUBE]

 

I suggest this first *not_secure_link*www.uow.edu.au/~bmartin/pubs/82cab/

then try these.

Arkin, William M., and Richard W. Fieldhouse, Nuclear Battlefields: Global Links in the
Arms Race, 1985, Ballinger Publ. Co., Cambridge, MA.

Ball, Desmond, Can Nuclear War Be Controlled? (Adelphi Paper No. 169), 1981, IISS, London, UK.

Ball, Desmond, and Jeffrey Richelson, Strategic Nuclear Targeting, 1986, Cornell Univ. Press, Ithaca, NY.

Bodansky, Yossef, Crisis In: Korea, 1994, SPI Books, New York, NY.

Burrows, William E., and Robert Windrem, Critical Mass: The Dangerous Race for Superweapons in a Fragmenting World, 1994, Simon and Schuster, New York, NY.

Charles, Daniel, Nuclear Planning in NATO: Pitfalls of First Use, 1987, Ballinger Publ. Co., Cambridge, MA.

Clayton, Bruce D., Life After Doomsday: A Survivalist Guide to Nuclear War and Other Major Disasters, 1980, Dial Press, New York, NY.

Cochran, Thomas B., William M. Arkin, and Robert S. Norris, Nuclear Weapons Databook Vol. I: U.S. Nuclear Forces and Capabilities, 1984, Ballinger Publ. Co., Cambridge, MA.

Cochran, Thomas B., William M. Arkin, Robert S. Norris, and Milton M. Hoenig, Nuclear Weapons Databook Vol. II: U.S. Nuclear Warhead Production, 1987, Ballinger Publ. Co.,
Cambridge, MA.

Cochran, Thomas B., William M. Arkin, Robert S. Norris, and Jeffrey I. Sands, Nuclear Weapons Databook Vol. IV: Soviet Nuclear Weapons, 1989, Harper and Row Publ., New York, NY.

Coggle, J. E., Biological Effects of Radiation, 2nd ed., 1983, Taylor and Francis Ltd., London, UK.

Committee for the Compilation of Materials on Damage Caused by the Atomic Bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, 1981, Basic Book Publ., New York, NY.

Denborough, Michael, Australia and Nuclear War, 1983, Croom Helm Australia Pty. Ltd., Sydney, Australia.

Diacon, Diane, Residential Housing and Nuclear Attack, 1984, Croom Helm Ltd., Beckenham, Kent, UK.

Douglass, Joseph D. Jr., and Amoretta M. Hoeber, Soviet Strategy for Nuclear War, 1979, Hoover Institution Press, Stanford, CA.

Dunnigan, James F., How to Make War: A Comprehensive Guide to Modern Warfare, rev. ed., 1988, William Morrow, New York, NY.

Ehrlich, Paul R., Carl Sagan, Donald Kennedy, and Walter Orr Roberts, The Cold and the Dark: The World after Nuclear War, 1984, W. W. Norton & Co., New York, NY.

Friedman, Norman, The Naval Institute Guide to World Naval Weapons Systems, 1989, U.S. Naval Institute Press, Annapolis, MY.

Friedman, Norman, The Naval Institute Guide to World Naval Weapons Systems, 1994 Update, 1994, U.S. Naval Institute Press, Annapolis, MY.

Glasstone, Samuel, and Philip J. Dolan, The Effects of Nuclear Weapons, 3rd ed., 1977, U.S. Dept. of Defense and Energy Research and Development Administration/U.S.
Government Printing Office, Washington, DC.

Greene, Owen, Ian Percival, and Irene Ridge, Nuclear Winter, 1985, Oxford Univ. Press, Oxford, UK.

Hansen, Chuck, U.S. Nuclear Weapons: The Secret History, 1988, Aerofax, Arlington, TX.

Harwell, Mark A., Nuclear Winter: The Human and Environmental Consequences of Nuclear War, 1984, Springer-Verlag, New York, NY.

Hersh, Seymour M., The Samson Option: Israel's Nuclear Arsenal and American Foreign Policy, 1991, Random House, New York, NY.

Hoffman, Mark S., World Almanac and Book of Facts 1989, 1988, Pharos Books, New York, NY.

Ingham, Richard, "Confirmed: Warsaw Pact Planned Nuclear, Chemical Onslaught on Western Europe", Agence France Presse, 3 August 1991.

Institute of Medicine, National Academy of Sciences, The Medical Implications of Nuclear War, 1986, National Academy Press, Washington, DC.

International Institute for Strategic Studies, The Military Balance 1988-1989, 1989, Brassey's/IISS, London, UK.

International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War, Last Aid: The Medical Dimensions of Nuclear War, 1982, W.H. Freeman and Co., New York, NY.

Kingston, Mike, ed., 1992-1993 Texas Almanac, 1992, Gulf Publ. Co., Houston, TX.

LATB Study Group, London After the Bomb, 1982, Oxford Univ. Press, Oxford, UK.

Leaning, Jennifer, and Langley Keyes, eds., The Counterfeit Ark: Crisis Relocation for Nuclear War, 1984, Ballinger Publ. Co., Cambridge, MA.

Lewis, John Wilson, and Hue Di, "China's Ballistic Missile Programs: Technologies, Strategies, Goals", International Security, Fall 1992 (17:2).

Messenger, George C., and Milton S. Ash, The Effects of Radiation on Electronic Systems, 1986, Van Nostrand Reinhold, New York, NY.

Norris, Robert S., and William M. Arkin, eds., "Nuclear Notebook", Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, 1987-present, monthly column.

Norris, Robert S., Andrew S. Burrows, and Richard W. Fieldhouse, Nuclear Weapons Databook, Vol. V: British, French, and Chinese Nuclear Weapons, 1994, Westview Press, Boulder, CO.

Office of Technology Assessment, U.S. Congress, The Effects of Nuclear War, 1979, U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, DC.

Office of the Historian, Headquarters Strategic Air Command, From Snark to Peacekeeper: A Pictorial History of Strategic Air Command Missiles, 1990, U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, DC.

Peterson, Jeannie, ed. for AMBIO, The Aftermath: The Human and Ecological Consequences of Nuclear War, 1983, Pantheon Books, New York, NY.

Polmar, Norman, The Naval Institute Guide to the Soviet Navy, 5th ed., 1991, Naval Institute Press, Annapolis, MY.

Pry, Peter, Israel's Nuclear Arsenal, 1984, Westview Press, Boulder, CO.
Ramberg, Bennett, Nuclear Power Plants as Weapons for the Enemy: An Unrecognized Military Peril, 1980, Univ. of California Press, Berkeley, CA.

Riordan, Michael, ed., The Day After Midnight: The Effects of Nuclear War, 1982, Cheshire Books, Palo Alto, CA.

Rothman, Tony, "A Memoir of Nuclear Winter", Analog, Nov. 1987, pp. 53-73.

Sagan, Carl, and Richard Turco, A Path Where No Man Thought: Nuclear Winter and the
End of the Arms Race, 1990, Random House, NY.

SCOPE, Environmental Consequences of Nuclear War, 1985, John Wiley & Sons, New York, NY.

Spector, Leonard S., The Undeclared Bomb, 1988, Ballinger Publ. Co., Cambridge, MA.

Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, SIPRI Yearbook 1988: World Armaments and Disarmament, 1988, Oxford Univ. Press, New York, NY.

Svirezhev, Yuri M., Ecological and Demographic Consequences of a Nuclear War, 1987, Akademie-Verlag Berlin, Berlin, East Germany.

Toomey, Christine, "Revealed: Pact's Blitzkrieg Plan to Invade West", The Sunday
Times, 28 March 1993.

U.S. Dept. of Defense, Soviet Military Power: An Assessment of the Threat 1988, 1988,

U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, DC.

U.S. Senate, Nuclear Winter and Its Implications (Hearings Before the Committee on Armed Services, United States Senate, 99th Congress, First Session, Oct. 2,3, 1985),
1986, U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, DC.

Warner, Frederick, "The Environmental Effects of Nuclear War", Environment, June 1988 (30:5), pp. 2-45.

Wright, Barton, World Weapon Database, Vol. I: Soviet Missiles, 1986, Lexington Books, Lexington, MA.

Zaloga, Steven J., Soviet Air Defense Missiles: Design, Developement and Tactics, 1989, Jane's Information Group, Coulsdon, Surrey, UK.

Zuckerman, Edward, The Day After World War III, 1984, Viking Press, New York, NY.

 

That is a lot of reading Dave, and it will be turned into a massive wall of text when stumbly separately quotes each book.

 

When he is done, I have many more.

 

Dave, I concur with your argument that a major nuclear war would be catastrophic, but would neither negate the possibility of life on earth nor would even likely constitute an extinction event for humans (though I certainly would not care to live through it, myself).

I have for primary source material a book commissioned by the National Research Council, the Commission on Physical Sciences, Mathematics and Resources, and the Committee on the Atmospheric Effects of Nuclear Explosions, published by the NAS in 1985 and entitled, The Effects on the Atmosphere of a Major Thermonuclear Exchange.

My personal copy is bound, and I do not know where one would even go to find it at this point (the Library of Congress or the National Academy of Sciences' D.C. archives, I suppose), but the essential thesis is that we would survive and deeply regret doing so.

 

My original point was that Clarise is full of shit it he/she/it thinks that we are not still living is a world of Mutually Assured Destruction.

Now whether that actually amounts to the extinction of humans and life on earth appears to be very much debatable but the idea that the US and Russia alone don't possess enough nuclear weapons to kill everyone in those respective countries several times over is not.

Which is what MAD refers to.

And now I need to look at what deviousdave put up because the last time I heard even Stephen Hawking noted the possibility of nuclear war ending human existence was what he saw as one of the greatest threats to human existence.

So I'd rather look at some studies and facts as opposed to just bullshitting about this. Because it looks like he might have a lot more information than I do and I could learn something.

 

I already saw this one and didn't see it as much as much different than what Hawking said.

I will.

Ok these could take awhile but one thing I've got is time so I will look at them but in my own time.

But just to be clear what you're saying is that all out nuclear war is perfectly survivable for humans? Is that it?

 

You are simply wrong about what MAD means. It does not mean we are all going to die. The goal of the doctrine is stability. That stability has been undermined not only by proliferation of nuclear weapons among rogue states, but also by our own demilitarization. The objective of having a nuclear arsenal is to never use it. In the absence of a decisive conventional defensive capability, one has nothing but nukes to fall back on in a crisis. That is why President Obama did not do the world a favor by abandoning the long-standing doctrine of a maintaining the ability to wage simultaneous conventional campaigns on two fronts.

 

Here is a good place to look at the at the different assumptions and arguments. How they came to be, and some science to resolve the issues. It is all fully cited and referenced, i suggest following up any points that may not sound intuitive

*not_secure_link*www.oism.org/nwss/s73p912.htm

I'd ignore the sections for paranoid people on building shelters and what not ... but the other sections are based on sound knowledge.

 

Not all humans. It is highly dependent on where you live. Bombs would be dropped in tactical locations.

 

\

Again you are a total academic and intellectual fraud who is actually lying about what you said. MAD, Mutual Assured Destruction refers to the capabilities of the US and Russia to kill everyone in the US and Russia several times over. And both the US and Russia still have those capabilities as the sources I provided clearly prove.

Now whether or not that would end all human existence or even all life on earth I see is very much debatable but that has nothing to do with the lies you are trying to tell that our reduced nuclear capacity would not result in the total destruction of Russia and the US or any other country that launched nuclear weapons.

 

BTW, your list is impressive. Do you really own all that material?

The 1986 treatise by Messenger and Ash is especially good. It is the seminal work on the EMP threat to the communications and power infrastructure.

 

And once those atomic war heads (because we're not talking bombs anymore) are dropped in the US, Russia, China, Iran, North Korea, India, Pakistan ect. everyone else will survive and be ok is that what you're telling me?

 

Will you stop it with the name calling? You rant like a child.

Again, strategic weapons fulfill their objective only if they are never used. The doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction doesn't mean we had guaranteed revenge against our adversaries. It assured a balance that prevented that outcome.

 

I'm not sure I would like to live a in a Post Nuclear war era. The world would be a very different place. The horror of having to endure such an event, is hard to even contemplate.

 

No. A lot of infrastructure and essential services would be devastated, this would result in many, perhaps millions of post war deaths.

"Serious climatic effects from a Soviet-U.S. nuclear war cannot be completely ruled out. However, possible deaths from uncertain climatic effects are a small danger compared to the incalculable millions in many countries likely to die from starvation caused by disastrous shortages of essentials of modern agriculture sure to result from a Soviet-American nuclear war, and by the cessation of most international food shipments.
"